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TB: Could be, yeah, sometimes the difference of a thousand percent in the price. They gave us “Friends of China” status, which meant that we had what’s called the “white card,” and with a white card you could get Chinese prices as compared to Western prices-which meant sometimes the difference could be.

TB: The thing is that we were given special treatment as scholars from the West, as Fulbright Scholars. WB: Tony was very good in Chinese, especially when it came to legalistic stuff, things like how much we have to pay for a room, because everybody was trying to cheat us, alas. TB: One of my great anxiety dreams is I have to speak Chinese, and often what will happen is that it’ll come out in Chinese and when I forget the words, I’ll switch over to Spanish or Greek-in my dream-and then it’ll be so confusing, I’ll wake myself up. We’re not happy without one, but the problem is when you’re like us-in what language do you dream? For years, I dreamed in Chinese, but always with a dictionary in my hand. It’s my native language, but it’s not my first one. You know so many languages-it’s popping out of your ears.ĭG: English is my third language. But it wasn’t because he was Jewish, it was because he was Charlie Chaplin.ĭG: Certainly, dual identities, and navigating that is certainly a tough task. Well, the fact is that Charlie Chaplin married two Jews, but he was from a Catholic family-he was self-educated, and brilliant, of course. WB: Borges also had this theory: He said that Charlie Chaplin was an outsider and had a very distinct view on humor, because he was a Jew, and Jews are on the outside of things, and, therefore, can laugh. WB: I remember: “She kept changing her face and name.” Borges, I wonder, was there ever a woman who for you was the quintessence of all womanhood, who was your Muse?” And he said: “Yes, in truth there was, but the strange thing is, she kept on changing her face.” TB: I remember when Borges was in Indiana, he was on stage, and someone from the audience asked him: “Mr. When will we ever finish the East Side Highway?” And he said to me: “What’s that woman talking about?” When we got to New York, one of the questions from the audience was: “Mr. I brought him three times to Indiana to give talks. WB: I spent a year in Argentina or so, and I lived exactly across the street from him. You met him in 1968 in New York and the two of you went on to have a long friendship, in which you discussed this literary tradition. You know, I don’t mind being pedantic.ĭG: Let’s talk about that and about Borges perhaps. They don’t read Sappho-if they’ve ever heard of her. I mean, today, I had a long conversation with my friend Khaled Mattawa, who was my student at Indiana university, and I got his first book published, and he feels the same as I do-that people tend to be on the illiterate side. WB: Well, no, not all writers, but many of the most popular ones. So, in your view, modern writers haven’t exactly taken advantage of this tradition in the best possible way? I’d rather read Sappho or Homer.ĭG: That’s interesting. I mean, for me, Hart Crane is a modern poet in part because I find so much modern poetry to be stunt poetry, meaning it’s an exhibition, and it really doesn’t depend upon language as it depends upon circus, which is fine, but it doesn’t interest me too much.

I have to say that I’m quite old-fashioned. Of course he may change that tradition, but at the same time that tradition takes for granted all that came before it.” In your view, have today’s writers changed literary traditions for better or worse? I don’t think a man can do much by himself, since after all, he has to use a language, and that language is a tradition. But I suspect that every generation rewrites, with very slight variations, what the other generations wrote. In 1981, you conducted a lengthy interview with Jorge Luis Borges, where he says: “Personally, I suppose all writers are writing the same book over and over again. Willis and Tony Barnstone Interlitq’s Californian Poets Interview Series: Willis and Tony Barnstone, Poets, Scholars, Translators, and Artists interviewed by David GaryanĬlick here to read Willis Barnstone’s poems Interlitq’s California Poets FeatureĬlick here to read Tony Barnstone’s poems in Interlitq’s California Poets FeatureĭG: Let’s begin with a question for Willis: You’ve met and worked with many renowned persons of our time.